There is an atheistic argument that no Christian theist can really disprove, and every time I have used it, no Christian theist has tried to disprove it successfully. It goes like this: “If you had been born and raised in a different or past society / culture? [like that of ancient Egypt] you’d be singing the praises of a quite different deity (or deities) with the same faith, belief, or conviction [like Osiris] and you know this is so. So what does that say about the existence of your Christian God? “
So how would my very frequent debating colleague known as MG react to this? Well, MG raised the question of the existence of Osiris, a god within the pantheon of ancient Egyptian deities.
MG – “Atheists say quite often that God does not exist …”
JP – Some do, but those people are misrepresenting the accepted atheist position. That is NOT the position I take. My position is that you, as a theist, by making a positive claim, have the burden of proof to back it up. Now let’s see if you can. I seriously doubt it.
[Even though there is no evidence for God’s existence that doesn’t preclude the possibility that God exists just that the burden of proof exists with the theist making the positive claim. Can that argument be applied to the ancient Egyptian god Osiris?]
MG – “In the same way, no rational person says” I simply have not seen evidence of Osiris “. No, Osiris does not exist, and we all know it.”
JP – The ancient Egyptians did not know. Were they all delusional? If so, doesn’t that suggest that all deities are delusional since there is no evidence for any of them?
JP – And the ancient Egyptians had proof and solid reasons to believe that Osiris existed.
JP – The ancient Egyptians were intelligent and rational people and believed in the existence of Osiris. So your argument is downright silly. No matter how things are cut, many people, as rational and intelligent as you, believed in the existence of Osiris. Who the hell do you think you are to judge them!
MG – “We have proof and solid reasons to believe that Osiris does not exist.”
JP – Who are “we”? Speak for yourself. With regards to the ancient Egyptians and Osiris, then what makes you think that you are better, smarter, and more rational than them? A little more yourself, yeah? But more to the point, you are an atheist when it comes to Osiris. You say that Osiris doesn’t exist, but that’s just your opinion. How do you really know that Osiris doesn’t exist? You can’t absolutely prove that Osiris doesn’t exist and you know you can’t, but if you think you can, do it here and now. Give readers your “evidence” here.
MG – “Okay, I have solid reasons to believe that Osiris does not exist. If Osiris did exist, then there would be a spiritual plane of existence in which our own spirits are judged (our hearts weigh against a feather). Not having spirits, cannot there is such a place, and Osiris cannot exist. “
JP – While I quite agree with you that there is no spiritual world, millions of other intelligent and rational people would willingly question it for your non-spiritual worldview of the plain of existence.
JP – Regarding Osiris: 1) Osiris could have been a real human being whose legend throughout the centuries in ancient Egypt has been disproportionate of all proportion to the story, the recounting and the recounting of his history. 2) If we are simulated beings, then Osiris had the same degree of virtual reality that you have now. 3) Osiris may have been an ‘ancient astronaut’ – he is often depicted with green skin! 4) Osiris inhabited the underworld, so he would normally be out of sight, except for the newly dead awaiting judgment and possible resurrection to the Egyptian version of the afterlife.
Now, using this question from Osiris as an example, I am of the firm opinion that you have set yourself up as the judge, jury, and executioner of an entire ancient culture and spoil them just because they had different belief systems than yours. So what makes you right and that the entire ancient Egyptian Empire is wrong? Lastly, don’t criticize another culture unless you’ve walked a mile in their shoes.
MG – “The Egyptians (and other ancient groups) were rational people, but they did not have enough information to realize that their gods did not exist. We have enough information to show that these did not exist, as I did in the case of Osiris” .
JP – So again, you have set yourself up as the judge, jury and executioner of an entire ancient culture and you disqualify them just because they had different belief systems than yours by suggesting that they lacked sufficient information.
MG – “The point is that it can be shown that the gods of ancient civilizations do not exist, but the God of the Bible is even more plausible now (with more accumulated information) than it was then.”
JP – Regarding the evidence of God, well, the ancient Greeks would give you evidence of Zeus (and the rest of the Olympians); the Norse evidence of Odin; the ancient Egyptian evidence of Osiris and Isis; the Aztec evidence of Quetzalcoatl; the Inca evidence of Viracocha; the Hindu evidence of Brahma; the American Indian evidence of a great spirit; Australian aborigines show their rainbow snake and so on. You not only have to provide evidence for God, but also disprove all evidence for Zeus, Horus, etc. You can probably find several other examples of deities currently believed in other modern monotheistic religions; deities that you would also need to deny to prove that God is the only true god.
JP – Similar to the Osiris argument, given that no one in the last thousands of years has proven the actual existence of your preferred deity (i.e. God), what makes you think you can?
JP – So even after all these posts of yours, it’s still not one iota closer to providing any evidence that proves the existence of your preferred deity much less than it was when it started. Going off on a tangent about Osiris does nothing to bolster your case for your preferred deity.
JP – So let’s get on with modern times and forget about Osiris for the moment, who after all is beyond our reach and therefore his status cannot be determined. So let’s say when you finally kick the bucket, you go to the Pearl Gates only to be greeted by the Trinity of Shiva, Braham and Vishnu. UPS! Now you have a good billion intelligent and rational people, true believers living right now who accept the existence of the Trinity of Shiva, Braham and Vishnu. So why are they wrong and again, who are you to pass judgment?
Note: There was no response to this challenge.
Conclusion: The purpose here was not to show that Osiris actually existed rather than, in principle, that the Christian God and the Egyptian deity Osiris are on theological equal footing, since neither can be proven to have had existence or nonexistence. There is as much or as little probability for one as for the other. That is in contrast to MG, who claims that the Christian God really does exist in reality and that the Egyptian deity Osiris does not exist and has never actually existed.
oooooOOOOOooooo
Postscript: Here’s a reason why I think you should find the Simulation Hypothesis attractive. All theologies could be “true”, Osiris could have virtually “existed”.
Postscript: God is not a necessary being. Maybe Brahma, Shiva, Isis and Osiris, but not God. In reality, in fact, there is no such thing as a necessary being, since beings or entities are in no way, shape, or form fundamental to existence.
Postscript: What about personal experiences? Personal experiences are just that, personal. They do not pass on any evidence related to that experience to anyone else who has not shared it, which is unlikely since, by definition, the experience was personal. Also, spiritual experiences are not limited to God, Jesus, or the Virgin Mary. All kinds of other deities, from Osiris to Shiva, Apollo, and Odin, have been personally experienced. That also applies to aliens, as well as having visions and communications with the deceased.
Postscript: The concept of resurrection is by no means limited to Jesus. The resurrection, for example, was a common theme in ancient Greek mythology. Hercules, as noted above, was also resurrected by his dad! And in Ancient Egyptian mythology, Isis resurrected Osiris. Also, if you read the Gospels side by side rather than consecutively, you will notice that the various accounts of Jesus’ resurrection are inconsistent and contradictory with numerous discrepancies as to who (who differs) saw what; between what actually happened (that also differs) and when; and between when (timelines also differ) what happened actually happened. Staff, events, and schedules are not consistent.